Main Trailer Tires
So far we have had 2 types of main tires on our trailer
Specs on
our first set of tires
that came
stock on our trailer in November, 2001.
GoodYear
ST225/75R15
For
Trailer use only
Max
Load 2540 at 65 psi.
Load
Range "D"
6
Ply, 2 polyester cord,
+2
Steel cord,
+2
Nylon cord
Side
wall = 2 Plys of polyester
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Problems until July of 2004
On the way to Homers the left front tire blew out. The tread came off it like a recap tire does.
This happened in the evening and all that we could get in the middle of no where at nite was a 4-ply Wal-Mart special car tire from S&L Road & Tire Service installed for $148.00
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On the way
home 5 days later we had yet another one blow out in the same manner
with the exception that it was the right rear one that blew.
At
the time these tires were 3 years and 8 months old (44 months) and
looked like brand new
right
up to the moment each of them decided to blow out.
Our second
set of tires:
Carlisle
ST225/75R15
For
Trailer Service Only
Max
Load 2540 at 65 psi.
Load
Range "D"
6
Ply,
2
polyester cord,
+2
Steel cord,
Side
wall = 2 Plys of polyester
They lack the extra 2 plys of nylon the GoodYear tires had
but the tire
folks told us they're rated as 8 ply tires making them the same thing
that our trailer originally came with when we bought it new. It
doesn't make sence to me how it could be lacking 2 plys of nylon and
be considered to be the same but then again I ain't no tire guy lol.
This was 3 tires we purchased in Ohio during Homer's 2004 Fly-In
We would have bought 4 but the place didn't have that many.
Highland
Tire Farm & Fleet
in
Hillsboro, Ohio
Date 7/15/04
|
3 |
225/75R15 Carlisle @ $81.00 ea |
$? |
|
1 |
- |
$? |
|
1 |
Metal Valve Stem |
$? |
|
- |
Tax |
$? |
|
- |
- |
$243.93 |
Fleet Tire
of
Knoxville, Tennessee
Date
2/22/05
Invoice # 214193
SLSM Mr. John
Baker
|
1 |
225/75R15 Carlisle Trail 8PR |
$78.95 |
|
1 |
Tn Pre tire disposal fee |
$1.00 |
|
1 |
Metal Valve Stem |
$3.00 |
|
- |
Tax |
$7.67 |
|
- |
- |
$90.62 |
Ordered on 2/22/05
|
1 |
1-225/75R15
Carlise Trail 8PR |
$78.95 |
|
1 |
Tn Pre tire disposal fee |
$1.00 |
|
1 |
Metal Valve Stem |
$3.00 |
|
1 |
White spoke wheel |
$47.00 |
|
- |
Tax |
$12.02 |
|
- |
- |
$141.97 |
|
Main trailer tire expenses to date |
$624.52 |
What we
found out about trailer tires is that
your
supposed to change them out every 3 to 5 years
because they
go bad from age and not being used on a daily basis.
March 28th 06
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Ok here we go again lol
Our 3rd set
of tires and our 2nd set of Carlisle tires
We're
at the
$1470.11 in the hole mark and
this tire stuff has really got our attention.
That
last set of Carlisle tires we got talked into in Ohio didn't work
out so good. We ran them back from Ohio in July of 04 and then
once to Sun 'N Fun in Florida and back. The trip home from Ohip
on the 3 Carlisle didn't go well at all. You could tell there
was a big difference in them in the fact that they rode lower like
they didn't have enough air in them not to mention that the trailer
itself had a bit of sway in it. Just outside of Lexington we
had the 4th original Goodyear tire blow out that we couldn't get
replaced so we put one of the original ones on it and made the trip
home. In April of 05 we set out once again for Sun 'N Fun and
had one of the worst trailer towing episodes we think anyone could
have ever had. This trip out the problem wasn't blowing any
tires it was trailer sway. We couldn't go over 55 mpg the whole
way down. Stopping no less than 8 times we did every thing
short of replacing the tires you could have imagined. First we
relocated things in the trailer and even moved items from it to the
front portion of the motorhome. On our next stop we redid the
trailer height in an effort to stop the madness. Well that
didn't work so we went after the tuff tow unit thinking that that was
all it could be. We reinstalled the light load spring which took us
all of about 2 hours in a rest stop and hit the highway once
again. That didn't work so on the next stop we put the heavy
duty spring back in and once again went after the trailer
height. To set that up properly it requires a very long 69 foot
level spot that is just about impossible to find until you start
getting into mid Florida so you can imagine the trouble we had
finding such a spot. Anyway not being able to do more than 60
mph the whole way we got about 6 miles from our destination of
Lakeland, Florida, and stopped for fuel. While Donna was
filling our fuel tank I crawled under the rear of the RV and saw
where the only two bolts that held the frame of our motorhome to the
body had been sheared. Once I saw that I came to the conclusion
it must be what the trouble has been the whole time. We didn't
get much time to repair it during the show and we didn't have a right
angle drill not to mention the proper drill bits to do the repairs so
we ended up going on a scavenger hunt to obtain the necessary items.
Woohoo
we borrowed a friends car and found a drill at a local Home Depot 10
miles away and found metal for backing plates at the main aviation
repair hanger at Sun 'N Fun. After two fun days of a little of this
and a little of that we finally got it repaired and set out for the
trip home. Once we got on the highway and up to speed we found ourselves
in worse shape than we were in on the way down. Now it was
happening as soon as we hit the 50 to 55 mph range and it didn't
matter if you were going up a hill down a hill or on level
ground. We milked it along until we hit the first available
spot and dug into the setup again. Six stops later at or close
to Valvosta, Georgia, we finally got it going on by completely
redoing the heights on the hitch on both the motorhome and
trailer. It still wondered around a bit over 70 but so long as
we stayed under that speed we had it going on and made it the rest of
the way home.
On
about the first of March, 2006, we pulled the trailer back to our
shop to do the 25 hours service on the helicopter. The trailer
was still swaying and knowing first hand that we had shot all our
bullets on it as far as the setup goes
the
only thing left we hadn't done was replace the tires
so
that was our next venture.
Can
you say Drama?
After
a bit of pondering Donna and I decided that the thing to do was to
go back to basics and put the exact same tires we had on the trailer
when it came from Pace American. We had trailered the
helicopter several thousand miles with those tires and never had any
problems up until the ohio trip in 04 so it would seem that would be
the best way to go. We called our two local tire dealers here
in town and found the best price to be at a place called National
Auto Parts. In the past on two different occasions we had had a
problem buying tires from these folks so prior to taking the old ones
to them we made sure they had exactually what we wanted. Once
they had them in house I went down there to drop the first two and
verified that they were correct. While I was there Terry their
head tire guy suggested that we go with a different type of tire that
would be far superior to the ones we wanted. I had heard this
before in an Ohio tire store the last time we got tires for this
thing but I listened anyway and what the fellow said made sense so I
decided to take his advice and go with a different tire. This
tire was the same brand and size that we were replacing but he stated
it was a 10 ply tire and would be much stiffer and stop the madness
as far as the trailer swaying goes which was what our while mission
was about. Another added benefit was that the tire would hold
more weight, some where around 3000 lbs. Not seeing a down side
other than a possible rougher ride for the helicopter I decided to go
with them.
In no time at all he had one of their nice delivery guys bring the first two new mounted tires back to us at our shop.
Looking
them over I noticed that one tire had a new valve stem
installed
in it that stuck out alot further then then it should have.
If
I were to ever curb that tire it would more than likely get snagged
and be ripped out of the wheel. Just imagine being in the middle
of BFE at 3am in the morning and having that little event!
The second tire had an anomoly too.
When you buy new tires the manufacturer puts a yellow dot in a specific spot on the side of the tire. In short it's a balance point. The wheel manufacturers also put in a balance point for the wheel itself which in reality is the valve stem hole that is drilled into the wheel. At any rate I took them and asked the delivery fellow to ask the guys that mount the next two tires not to install valve stems in them that were over sized and to please align the yellow dots to the valve stems if they wouldn't mind.
A short time later I recieved a phone call from Terry at National about the issues I'd, in his words, complained about to his driver. He said if they had in fact installed a valve stem that was to long to send it back and they would redo it but he thought they replaced them with the same length and type that was in it. I told him it wasn't a big deal and that wasn't necessary but to please try and not repeat the mistakes on the other two tires they just received and also to please ask his guys line up the yellow dot with the valve stems.
A
short time later the fellow dropped off the remaining two tires and
we put them on the trailer. When I was checking the air
pressure in them I noticed that the statement on the side of the
tires said that they only had 7 plys over all but they did in fact
say load range E. Humm? 7 plys is 1 less than the 8 plys the
original Goodyears had and only 1 more than the ones I was replacing
which didn't make sense to Donna and I at all.
Well
I called Terry back at National and told him that he told me he was
selling us 10 ply tires
and
it even stated it on the bill so whats up?
Did
we get the wrong tires by mistake?
His reaction to that question was an instant snippy reply that the tires were correct and he in fact did sell us 10 ply tires!
My reply was that I dont get it, why does it say 7 on the side of the tires? and 10 plys on the invoice? From that point on he got pretty anal and asked me why I was such a complainer? After he finished venting! he told me that the tech guys at Carlisle could explain and gave me their number so I could call them. Here we go lol the old pass the buck game, they got my money and evidently that ends their responsibility to the their customer. Anyhow I tried calling the number he gave me but either I wrote it down wrong or he gave me the wrong number so I wasn't able to get ahold of them. I called back and the owner of National Bart Brody told me Terry was just to busy to bother at the moment and that he himself didn't have the number and would have Terry call me back as soon as he got a break. So far he never did call back and to tell the truth I was afraid to call him and get into another pissing match and get called a complainer again lol. In the mean time, thanks to the power of the internet and good ole Google we found out what Terry was talking about and didn't have the time or the actual knowledge maybe to explain to us.
Seems it's like the 2X4 that isn't a 2X4 and the the bag of potato chips that's less than half full. Way back in the good old days, tires actually had the number of plys in them and the load rating reflected but along came progress and and better materials and manufacturing techniques and they changed the way they make tires but forgot to change the book somewhere along the way for some unknown reason, my guess is 10 sounds bigger and better than 7 as a sales pitch. The bottom line is that our so called 10 ply tires in Terrys words do not actually have 10 plys, they have what is called a 10 ply rating. In other words they do the same job and take the same load that grandpa's real 10 ply tires did. Pretty simple if ya ask me and perfectly exceptable by todays standards. Why the guy at the tire store didn't say that during the sale and especially after it when we directly asked him I've no idea, it sure would have saved alot of bullS$&^ not to mention hard feelings. I guess our lesson learned here is don't question the all knowing tire gods and don't tell them when they are putting out poor workmanship not to mention pissy attitudes or they may just bitch slap ya lol.
Its all pretty simple but at the same time intense so it'll have to wait until I get a chance to finish this post.
|
GoodYear |
Carlisle 20 months |
Carlisle Time will tell |
|
ST225/75R15 |
ST225/75R15 |
ST225/75R15 |
|
Max
Load 2540 at 65 psi. |
Max
Load 2540 at 65 psi. |
Max
Load 2830 at 80 psi. |
|
6
Ply, |
6
Ply, |
No
Reference to Plys on tire other then |
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Side wall = 2 Plys of polyester |
Side wall = 2 Plys of polyester |
Side wall = 2 Plys of polyester |
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Total Plys acording to data printed on tire 8 ply over all |
Total Plys acording to data printed on tire 6 ply over all |
Total Plys acording to data printed on tire 7 ply over all
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This tire handles 290 lbs more weight according to the specs on it. Other then the fact that it takes 80 psi of air as opposed to 65 psi and is in the middle actual ply wise of the two prior tires we have had we have no idea how. |
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Thus far
there's a mythical statement that a |
Thus far
there's a mythical statement that a |
Thus far
there's a mythical statement that a |
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$438.00 |
including an extra spare and wheel this venture cost us $476.52
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$407.59 |
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Stuff
we found out this round. |
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Load range C = Load range D = Load range E = Why? |
6 ply whether it actually has 6 plies or not 8 ply whether it actually has 6 or 8 plies or not 10 ply whether it actually has 7 plies or not Cause the tire engineers say so lol |
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The last 4 digits of the serial number = The first two digits of the last 4 numbers = The last 2 digits of the last 4 numbers = |
tells us when the tire was actually manufactured the week of the year it was made the year it was made |
The data
below came from this sorce
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=55
The load range
or ply rating branded on a tire's sidewall helps identify its
strength and ability to contain air pressure. While specific load
ranges are assigned to passenger tires, load ranges are identified in
ascending alphabetical order for light truck tires (the further along
the letter is in the alphabet, the stronger the tire and the greater
amount of air pressure it can withstand and load it can carry).
Before load ranges were adopted, ply ratings were used to identify
the relative strength of light truck tires with higher numerical
values assigned to tires featuring stronger, heavier duty constructions.
Today's
load range/ply ratings do not count the actual number of body ply
layers found inside the tire,
but indicate
an equivalent strength based on early bias ply tires.
Most radial
passenger tires have one or two body plies, and light truck tires,
even those with heavy duty ratings (10-, 12- or 14-ply rated),
actually have only two or three fabric body plies, or one steel ply.
Light Truck Tires
Since light
truck tires are often available in multiple load ranges, the
appropriate load range is identified immediately following the size's
rim diameter in The Tire Rack's descriptions.
LT-metric,
LT-Flotation and LT-numeric tires will be branded with their load
range ("Load Range E" or "LRE") or their ply
rating ("10 Ply Rated") on their sidewalls and list their
appropriate load range letter in their descriptions as LT245/75R-16E,
7.50R-15D or 31x10.50R-15C.
ST-metric
sized special trailer service tires will be branded with their load
range ("Load Range D" or "LRD") on their
sidewalls and list their appropriate load range letter in their
descriptions as ST205/75R15 LRC.
Common
passenger, light truck and special trailer
tire load ranges, equivalent ply ratings
and load inflation pressures for radial ply tires are shown below:
Load Range, Ply Rating and Load Pressure for Light Truck Tires
|
- |
Load Range |
Ply Rating |
Load Pressure (psi) |
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LT-metric |
B |
4 |
35 |
|
LT-numeric |
C |
6 |
50 |
|
Flotation LT* |
D |
8 |
65 |
|
E |
10 |
80 |
|
|
F |
12 |
95 |
Where
Should I Have Tires Mounted?
[LE] Acura
dealers do not necessarily have the same high-end tire mounting
equipment as places who specialize in that work. The first (and last)
time I had my tires done at the dealer it was a major struggle with
their equipment to dismount the 245/40-17's on the rear. The poor
mechanic was sweating, filthy, and seriously bruised by the time he
got it off. Then during an epic battle to mount the new tire, their
mounting machine *broke*.
So they ran my
tire/rim down the street to a tire shop and were back in 10-15
minutes with it nicely mounted and balanced. They said that they just
didn't have the right equipment to handle such low profile tires at
the dealership. In the interest of maintaining a good relationship
with these guys, I've been taking my tires to a good tire shop ever
since that first episode.
[TG] My two
cents worth as someone with dealership experience (from both sides of
the fence).
Most older
dealers do not have the equipment to dismount and mount NSX tires nor
do they have equipment to do alignments (tire width, ground
clearance). As I said "Most" not all. This equipment is
very expensive and some dealers my not find it cost effective. If you
are dealing with a Newer Dealership or one that is updating there
equipment they can probably help you out, on the other hand if you
are dealing with a dealer that has been around a while they may not.
My local
dealer doesn't have the equipment to handle NSX work in-house however
they will take your car in the morning and you can pick it up that
afternoon. If your using a tire cert. they do the alignment and mount
and balance the tires (no charge). If you need tires or an alignment
they will give you the option of several places to go or drop your
car off and they will handle it (at no additional charge).
Basically
ask your dealer up front.
[MCA]
The higher-end Hunter machines can do these without breaking a
sweat... I watched a guy demo these for me... with one hand he
removed / remounted an 18-inch RUN-FLAT C5 tire in about 5-7 minutes.
The stiffness of the 2-inch run-flat sidewall on this is beyond the
"stand on it and work the pry bars" technique that the
corner mom-and-pop tire shop might use..
I'd suggest
going to a specialist... most shops should be able to handle the
16" front okay, but the 17" rear might be difficult... I
run 35-series 18" rears, and this limits my mounting and
alignment choices.
[RBA] I had
chromed TSW Evo's, and Discount Tire charged me $65 to pull the old
tires, put the new ones on, and balance - ALL FOUR WHEELS. No damage
done to the rims, either.
Most of the
guys down here in Houston go to NTB or Discount for all their
tire-related maintenance and have had no problems to my knowledge,
for what it's worth...
What
Are Those Dots On The Sidewall?
[AWN] The red
dot indicates the point of maximum force-variation; it should be
aligned with the point on the wheel that's physically lowest.
Usually, wheel
manufacturers will drill the valve-stem hole at the lowest point on
the wheel, so you should align the red dot with the valve stem.
[GM] From the
Yokohama booklet about the OEM AO22H1's that came with my car: The
RED dot is to be used as the location for measuring tread wear.
"When the indicators show, tires must be replaced."
The
YELLOW dot indicates the lightest part of the tire, also known as
"maximum force variation." This should be lined up with the
heaviest part of the wheel - the valve stem. They call this
"phase aligning" the tire.
[SS] The
yellow spot (light) should be mounted on the heavy spot (valve stem)
on the wheel. In which case the red dot would be the high point on
the tire, and wear the fastest, indicating the need for replacement
sooner that other places on the tread. OR The red spot (high) should
be mounted on the low spot (valve stem) on the wheel.
Balancing Equipment
[KS -
2001/2/22] In addition to their 611 alignment system, Hunter also
makes a state of the art wheel balancing system called the GSP9700
Vibration Control System. On their website, they provide the ability
to locate a shop that has the GSP9700. The website address is http://www.gsp9700.com/pub/search/findgsp9700.cfm
How Should
The Wheels Be Balanced?
[AT] In
balancing, the terms static (fixed,non-moving) versus dynamic
(moving) have really nothing to do with the types of weights or how
they are attached. Your spin balancing machines are dynamically
balancing the tire and the rim. The computer program in the machine
then tells the operator how much weight to use and where it should be
placed on the rim. This process can also be done with the tire on the
car. This will now take into account other moving parts in the
suspension and the whole thing is balanced as a unit. The only
problem with this is that the tire/rim setup is now married to that
corner of the car. You can't even remove the tire, turn it and mount
it in a different position from what it was balanced at. These two
types of balancing techniques are dynamic, ie., the tire/rim is
moving while the devices determine where the tire is out of balance.
The type of weights used, sticky backed or banged-on as you call
them, are really not important except for the ease to the operator or
equipment doing the work. I've seen sticky backed weights mounted on
a rim in the same area where a bang-on type of weight would also work
just as effectively. Like Harry has mentioned, I prefer the sticky
backed weights because they do less-to-no damage to the rim when
mounted. In addition, if the machine being used tells the operator
that the best place for the weight is somewhere near the center of
the inside of the rim, then bang-on weights can't be used. Sometimes
it's also in more than one spot and so a combination of strategies
can be used, but usually the stick-on weights will work for most
situations.
Static
balancing, which is rarely used today because of the demand of the
new tires, has the tire being weighed on a bubble type scale or
mechanism which senses where the heavy spot of a tire is. This is an
average weight and area for the total weight needed. This type of
balancing lends itself to bang-on type of weights mainly for the ease
to the operator in putting them on with the speed of doing the job.
Now I will have to say that I'm not totally sure how a car factory
which is mounting and balancing tires through the use of highly
automated equipment, which probably have little human input, does
this process. I don't know if that technique is considered static,
dynamic or something in-between.
A final
note on dynamic balancing and sticky-backed weights.
I had this
done to my 15" front and 16" rear early 1991 rims using
autocross RT1's. This seemed to work fine for a short time but I did
notice that I had some weight on the inside area near one of the
spokes. I also noticed that I had very little clearance between these
weights and the front brake caliper. Well after one autocross, I had
to back away from another contestant's car while in the grid area and
I heard this terrible crunching noise. It sounded like I broke
something in the front end. Checked the car out and couldn't find
anything wrong. Later when I drove the car home I noticed a severe
vibration coming from the front while doing 55mph. I later found out
when changing tires to the 94 street sizes, that the weights had
started to come loose on the front and then hit the caliper while I
was backing up. This peeled them right off and they fell off when I
started driving forward. No damage to the car but it put a minor
scare into me for a short time. So if you have to use sticky weights,
and are using the early rims for the NSX, make sure that the weights
are not going to interfere with the front brake calipers. You have
very little clearance there.
[AWN] Clip-on
weights SUCK. There is NO WAY I'd let anyone put them on my wheels...
Inside OR outside. Stick-on weights on the inside of each rim are
fine on the NSX (or any car with similar wheel offsets). You only
need weights on both the inside and outside edges of the rim on
wheels with offsets more negative than those on the NSX wheels.
Distributing
the weights on both inside and outside edges of the rim can make a
HUGE difference, mostly because static balance is different from
dynamic balance. Imagine a simplified version of an unbalanced wheel;
visualize it as a pair of unequal weights connected by a bar, with a
hole drilled through the midpoint of the bar.
__________
/ /|
/_________/ |
| | |
| 100 lbs | /
|_________|/
| |
| |
|O|
<=== Pivot Hole
| |
__| |_____
/ |_| /|
/________ / |
| | |
|
1 lb | /
|_________|/
Obviously, the thing's out of balance. The light side needs 99 more pounds of weight, right? Ok, add 99 pounds. Let's say that we add the weight to just one side of the wheel:
_______
/ /|
/_________/ |
| | |
| 100 lbs | /
|_________|/
| |
| |
|O|
<== Pivot Hole
| |
__| |_____
/ |_| /|
/________ / |
|1 lb__ | |
|
/ / | /
|__/ /____|/
/ /
_____/_/__
/ /|
/_________/ |
| | |
|
99 lbs | /
|_________|/
The
perspective is a little odd-looking here, so let me draw a simple
side view:
_________
| |
| 100 lbs |
|_________|
| |
| |
|=|
<=== Pivot Hole
| |
________ ___|_|___
| |_______| |
| 99 lbs |_______| 1 lb |
|________| |_________|
See what
happens? If you do a static balance check on this "wheel"
by balancing it at its pivot point, it will appear to be perfectly balanced:
_________
| |
|
99 lbs |
|_________|
| |
| |
| |
__|_|___ _________
| |___________| |
| 1 lb |___________| 100 lbs |
|________| /\ |_________|
||
Pivot
If you SPIN
the "wheel" around its pivot point, though, you'll see that
it's actually way OUT of balance; the 99-pound weight will try real
hard to be collinear with the 100-pound weight and the 1-lb weight,
and it'll make the "wheel" wobble as it spins.
If you'd
balanced the "wheel" by adding TWO 49.5-pound weights, one
on each side of the 1-pound weight, the wheel would balance both
statically AND dynamically. Here's a side view (those perspective
views were a bitch to draw) of the proper way:
_________
| |
| 49.5 lb |
|_________|
| |
| |
| |
__|_|___ _________
| |___________| |
| 1 lb |___________| 100 lbs |
|________| /\ |_________|
| | ||
| | Pivot
| |
___|_|___
| |
| 49.5 lb |
|_________|
See? Now
the wheel's stable.
[BSD]
The tape on weights come in "strips" made up of squares.
Each square weighs 1/4 ounce. You can also get ones measured in grams
but the balance machines I've seen all report in ounces.
I couldn't
cut and paste the drawings without distortion
so if your
really interested in witnessing what these drawings actually teach
you go to the site they came from and see them, it'll make a lot more sense.
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/TireWheel/Balancing.htm
END
